Meth In The Morning, Heroin At Night: Inside The Seesaw Struggle of Dual Addiction

Powder methamphetamine packaged in foil for an illegal street sale. Across the U.S., more and more opioid users report using methamphetamine as well as opioids — up from 19% in 2011 to 34% in 2017, according to one study.

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In the 25 years since she snorted her first line of methamphetamine at a club in San Francisco, Kim has redefined “normal” many times. At first, she says, it seemed like meth brought her back to her true self — the person she was before her parents divorced, and before her stepfather moved in.

“I felt normal when I first did it, like, ‘Oh! There I am,’ ” she says.

Kim is 47 now and has been chasing “normal” her entire adult life. That chase has brought her to some dark places, so we agreed not to use her last name, at her request. For a long time, meth, known commonly as speed, was Kim’s drug of choice.

Then she added heroin to the mix. She tried it for the first time while she was in treatment for meth.

After struggling with addiction to both heroin and meth for decades, Kim got care at a residential treatment program for women — Epiphany Center, in San Francisco. She’s now working and plans to go back to college in the fall.

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“That put me on a nine-year run of using heroin,” Kim says. “And I thought, ‘Oh, heroin’s great. I don’t do speed anymore.’ To me, it saved me from the tweaker-ness,” she says, referring to the agitation and paranoia many meth users experience, and how heroin, an opiate, calmed that.

Now, Kim has just finished addiction treatment for both drugs.

She was part of the last meth wave of the ’90s, and now she’s part of a new meth epidemic sweeping through parts of the United States, especially the West. Deaths involving methamphetamine are up. Hospitalizations are up.

Taking meth and opioids for a “synergistic high”

Researchers who have tracked drug use for decades believe the new meth crisis got a kick-start from the opioid epidemic.

“There is absolutely an association,” says Dr. Phillip Coffin, director of substance use research at the San Francisco Department of Public Health.

Across the U.S., more and more opioid users say they use methamphetamine as well, up from 19% in 2011 to 34% in 2017, according to a study published in the journal Drug and Alcohol Dependence last year. The greatest increases were in the western United States.

That research suggests that efforts to get doctors to cut down on writing opioid prescriptions may have driven some users to buy meth on the street instead.

“Methamphetamine served as an opioid substitute, provided a synergistic high, and balanced out the effects of opioids so one could function ‘normally,’ ” the researchers write.

It’s kind of like having a cup of coffee in the morning to wake up and a glass of wine in the evening to wind down — or using meth on Monday to get to work and heroin on Friday to ease into the weekend.

Amelia says that’s how her drug use evolved to include meth.

At first, drugs were just a fun thing she would do on the weekend — ecstasy and cocaine with her friends. Then, on Monday, Amelia would just go about her workweek.

“I’m a horse trainer, so I worked really hard, but I also partied really hard,” she says.

Then one weekend, when Amelia was feeling kind of hungover from the night before, a friend passed her a pipe and said it was opium.

“I thought it was like smoking weed or hash, you know?,” Amelia says now. “I just thought it was like that.”

She says she grew to like the opium stuff and eventually contacted the friend’s dealer.

“The woman said, ‘How long have you been doing heroin for?’ and my jaw nearly hit the ground,” Amelia says. “I was just really, honestly, shocked. I was like, ‘What? I’ve been doing heroin this whole time?’ I felt really naive, really stupid for not even putting the two together.”

Pretty soon, Amelia started feeling sick around the same time every day. It was withdrawal symptoms — a clear sign she was becoming dependent on the drug. Her weekend smoke became her daily morning smoke. Then it was part of her lunchtime routine.

“I just kind of surrendered to that and decided, ‘Screw it,’ ” she says. “I’ll just keep doing it. I’m obviously still working, I’m fine.’ “

A heroin habit is expensive. Amelia was working six days a week to pay for it. Any horses that needed to be ridden, any lessons that needed to be taught, she said yes to because she wanted the money.

But bankrolling her heroin use was exhausting. One day, one of the women she worked with at the horse barn offered her some meth as a pick-me-up.

Meth is comparatively cheap these days. It became the thing that kept Amelia going so she could earn enough money to buy heroin.

“The heroin was the most expensive part,” she says. “That was $200 a day at one point. And the meth was $150 a week.”

This pattern lasted for three years, until Amelia discovered she was pregnant. As soon as her daughter was born, she entered a residential treatment program in San Francisco — the Epiphany Center — that would accept her and her baby.

“I was OK with being a drug addict,” Amelia says. “I was OK with that being my life.” she says. “But I wasn’t OK with having kids and letting that be part of my life.”

Rehab admissions on the rise for mixers of heroin and meth

Admissions to drug rehabilitation for heroin have remained steady in recent years in San Francisco. But the number of heroin addicts reporting methamphetamine as a secondary substance problem has been rising. In 2014, 14% of heroin users entering rehab in San Francisco said meth was also a problem. Three years later, 22% said meth was also a problem.

“That is very high,” says Dr. DanCiccarone, a professor of family community medicine at the University of California, San Francisco, who has been studying heroin for almost 20 years. “That’s alarming and new and intriguing and needs to be explored.”

The speedball — heroin plus cocaine — is a classic combination, he says.

“It’s like peanut butter cups, right — chocolate and peanut butter together,” he says. “Methamphetamine and heroin are an unusual combination.”

The meth and heroin combo is colloquially referred to as a goofball, Ciccarone adds, because it makes the user feel “a little bit silly and a little bit blissful.”

For Kim, the methamphetamine use came first. Then she added heroin.

“I ended up doing both at the same time every day, both of them,” she says.

For Kim, it was always about finding the recipe to what felt normal. Start with meth. Add some heroin. Touch up the speed.

“You’re like a chemist with your own body,” she says. “You’re balancing, trying to figure out your own prescription to how to make you feel good.”

Now Kim is trying to find that balance without drugs. She’s been sober for a year. So has Amelia, the horse trainer. Her sober anniversary is the same as her daughter’s birthday.

This story is part of NPR’s health reporting collaboration with KQED and Kaiser Health News.

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A Year After Spinal Surgery, A $94,000 Bill Feels Like A Backbreaker

Since her spinal surgery, Liv Cannon has been able to work in the garden and play with her energetic dogs without having to worry about pain.

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Spinal surgery made it possible for Liv Cannon to plant her first vegetable garden.

“It’s a lot of bending over and lifting the wheelbarrow and putting stakes in the ground,” the 26-year-old says as she surveys the tomatillos, cherry tomatoes and eggplants growing in raised beds behind her house in Austin, Texas. “And none of that I could ever do before.”

For the first 24 years of her life, Cannon’s activities were limited by chronic pain and muscle weakness.

“There was a lot of pain in my legs, which I can now recognize as nerve pain,” she says. “There was a lot of pain in my back, which I thought was, you know, just something everybody lived with.”

Cannon saw lots of doctors over the years. But they couldn’t explain what was going on. She’d pretty much given up on finding an answer for her pain until her fiancé, Cole Chiumento, pushed her to try one more time.

Liv Cannon and her fiancé, Cole Chiumento, considered calling off their wedding because of uncertainty over medical debt from her surgery. “I think about it every time I go to the mailbox,” Cannon says.

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“It never improved. It never got better,” Chiumento says. “That just didn’t sound right to me.”

So Cannon went to a specialist who ordered a scan of her spine. A few days later, her phone rang.

“We found something on your MRI,” a voice said.

The images showed that Cannon had been born with diastematomyelia, a rare disorder related to spina bifida. It causes the spinal cord to split in two.

In Cannon’s case, the disorder also led to a tumor that trapped her spinal cord, causing it to stretch as she grew.

In December 2017, a neurosurgeon opened up her spinal column and operated for several hours, freeing the cord.

“I think it was Day 3 after my surgery I could feel the difference,” Cannon says. “There was just a pain that wasn’t there anymore.”

As she recovered, Cannon saw lots of huge medical bills go by. They were all covered by her insurance plan. Almost a year went by after the operation.

Then a new bill came.

Patient: Liv Cannon, 26, of Austin, Texas. At the time of her surgery, she was a graduate student insured with Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas through her job at the University of Texas.

Total bill: $94,031 for neuromonitoring services. The bill was submitted to Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas, which covered $815.69 of the amount and informed her she was responsible for the balance. The insurer covered all of Cannon’s other medical bills, which came to more than $100,000, including those from the hospital, surgeon and anesthesiologist.

Service provider: Traxx Medical Holdings LLC, an Austin company that provides neuromonitoring during spinal surgery. Neuromonitoring uses electrical signals to detect when a surgeon is causing damage to nerves.

Medical service: Cannon was born with a rare spinal condition that had caused chronic pain and muscle weakness since she was a child. In December 2017, she had successful spinal surgery to correct the problem. Her surgeon requested neuromonitoring during the operation.

What gives: Neuromonitoring made sense for the type of surgery Cannon had. The bill did not. Cannon should have been warned long before her surgery that the neuromonitoring company would be an out-of-network provider whose fees might not be covered by her insurer.

Liv Cannon was diagnosed with diastematomyelia, a rare disorder related to spina bifida, and had surgery in December 2017 to correct the problem. Most of the cost of the surgery was covered by her insurance, but more than $93,000 for out-of-network neuromonitoring services was not.

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At first, she was baffled by the billing information that Blue Cross sent her. “It was one of those things from the insurance company that says this is the amount we cover and this is the amount you might owe your provider,” she says.

The statement listed four separate charges from the day of her surgery. Each was described as a “diagnostic medical exam.” Together, they came to $94,031.

Blue Cross said the covered amount was $815.69 — minus a $750 deductible and $26.27 for coinsurance — and informed Cannon she might have to pay the balance — $93,991.58

“I was shocked,” she says. Chiumento was outraged.

“As soon as I saw that, I thought it was a scam,” he says.

Share Your Story And Bill With Us

If you’ve had a medical-billing experience that you think we should investigate, you can share the bill and describe what happened here.

The bill had come from an Austin company called Traxx Medical Holdings LLC. Traxx did not respond to emails, phone calls and a fax seeking comment on the charge.

The company’s website shows that Traxx provides a service called intraoperative neurophysiological monitoring, which evaluates the function of nerves during surgery. The goal is to help a surgeon avoid causing permanent damage to the nervous system.

There is an ongoing debate about whether neuromonitoring is needed for all spinal surgery. But it is standard for a complicated operation like the one Cannon had, says Richard Vogel, president of the American Society of Neurophysiological Monitoring.

On the other hand, a $94,000 charge for the service can’t be justified, Vogel says.

“You’re not going to meet anybody who believes that a hundred thousand dollars or more is reasonable for neuromonitoring,” Vogel says.

Most neuromonitoring companies charge reasonable fees for a valuable service and are upfront about their ownership and financial arrangements, he says. But some companies are greedy and submit huge bills to an insurance company, hoping they won’t be challenged, he adds.

Even worse, “some neuromonitoring groups charge excessive fees in order to gain business by paying the money back to surgeons,” Vogel says.

Last year, Vogel’s group published a position statement condemning these “kickback arrangements” and other unethical business practices.

It is unclear whether Traxx, the company that provided neuromonitoring for Cannon, has any financial arrangements with surgeons. Cannon’s surgeon did not respond to requests for comment.

The size of the fee for Cannon’s neuromonitoring was only part of the problem. The other part was that Traxx — unlike her hospital, surgeon and anesthesiologist — had no contract with Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas.

As an out-of-network provider, the company could set its own fees and try to collect from Cannon any amount it didn’t get from her insurer.

Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas said it doesn’t comment on problems affecting individual members. But the insurer did offer a general statement by email about the problem:

“Unfortunately, non-contracted providers can expose our members to significantly greater out-of-pocket costs. These charges often have no connection to underlying market prices, costs or quality. If given the opportunity, we will try to negotiate with the provider to reduce the cost.”

One thing working against Cannon is that she is pretty sure that just before surgery, she signed a paper that authorized the out-of-network neuromonitoring.

“It was 4:30 in the morning and you’re like, ‘OK, let’s get this over with,’ ” she recalls.

Getting consent in the hospital may be legal, but it’s not reasonable, says Dr. Arthur Garson Jr., who directs the Health Policy Institute at the Texas Medical Center in Houston.

For example, a patient might be having a heart attack, Garson says. “You got chest pain, you’re sweating, sick as you can be, and they hand you a piece of paper and they say, ‘Sign here.’ “

The Texas Legislature passed a bill in May to protect patients from the sky-high bills this practice can produce. And Congress is considering similar legislation.

These are small steps in the right direction, Garson says.

“Asking the individual patient to make that decision even when they’re not sick, I think, is difficult,” he says, “and maybe we ought to think of some better way to do it.”

The Texas legislation is expected to take effect later this year but affects only bills that occur after it becomes law. So that $94,000 figure is never far from Cannon’s mind, even as she and Chiumento plan their wedding.

“Every time I go out and I collect the mail, I’m wondering, ‘Is this the day it’s going to show up and we’re going to have to deal with this?’ ” she says.

The takeaway: Neuromonitoring during complex surgery involving the spine can help prevent inadvertent damage. But monitoring may be unnecessary for lower-risk back operations, like spinal fusion.

It is strange that neuromonitoring is charged as a separate service, rather than part of the spine surgery. Cardiac monitoring is not charged separately during bypass surgery, for example.

When considering spine surgery, ask your doctor whether neuromonitoring will be part of the procedure. If so, will it be billed separately? Try to find out the name of the provider and get an estimate of the cost beforehand.

Check with your insurer to determine if the neuromonitoring provider is within your network and to make sure the estimated charge will be covered.

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U.S. Continues Dominance In Women’s World Cup With 3-0 Win Over Chile

U.S. players celebrate after teammate Julie Ertz scored their side’s second goal during the Women’s World Cup Group F soccer match between United States and Chile at Parc des Princes in Paris, France on Sunday.

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The United States Women’s National Team continued to show why it’s the best team in the world with another stellar performance in the Women’s World Cup. The U.S. defeated Chile 3-0 before a sell-out crowd in Paris.

This is the first time the U.S. has ever played in the French capital. And the crowd that showed up was decidedly pro-USA. It was a gem of a game for the U.S. which controlled play from the beginning with crisp and precise passes that had Chile on the defensive from the first whistle.

It was a different look for the U.S. as there were seven lineup changes to the starting 11 from the last game. Several veterans sat out the game including Alex Morgan, Megan Rapinoe and Tobin Heath. It shows the depth of the American squad and the switch-ups didn’t seem to bother the team. The U.S. played most of the first half attacking Chile and continuing to show its dominance this World Cup as the defending champions. Coach Jill Ellis is looking to squeeze the best out of her players as she tests different lineups as critical games of the tournament loom.

There was a lot to like against Chile. Carli Lloyd got the scoring started early with a beautiful left-footed strike from the top of the penalty area in the 11th minute. It was a record goal for the team captain. She becomes the first person to score in six consecutive Women’s World Cup games. The U.S. never let up after that. In the 26th minute, Julie Ertz slammed a spinning header into the back of the net off a corner kick. Carli Lloyd scored again in the 35th minute with a powerful header of her own.

It was a statement game for Lloyd (despite missing a penalty kick in the 81st minute) who came in off the bench in the record-setting 13-0 win against Thailand. Lloyd is playing in her fourth World Cup and now has 10 World Cup goals and moves into third all-time for the USA (Abby Wambach has 14 and Michelle Akers 12). Lloyd is the oldest U.S. player who turns 37 next month.

The U.S. had 25 shots on goal compared to just one by Chile. The Chilean goalkeeper, Christiane Endler, had several sparkling saves to keep the U.S. tally lower. As noted by my colleague Laurel Wamsley who attended the game in Paris’s Parc des Princes stadium: “There were so many shots on the Chile goal, but they were stopped by Endler who had an incredible game. After each shot she stopped, the stadium filled with exasperated cries from U.S. fans.”

If there are any questions in this tournament, it’s about the U.S. goalkeeper Alyssa Naeher. She’s been untested so far and has only had to defend a total of three shots in the first two games.

With the win, the United States is guaranteed to move on to the knockout round of the Women’s World Cup. The U.S. will play its final game of group play against Sweden (which also advanced today) on Thursday. It’s an important match because it will determine whether the U.S. has an easier or more difficult path forward.

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Women’s World Cup: Team USA To Bring All They Have Against Chile

United States’ Alex Morgan, second right, celebrates after scoring her side’s 12th goal during the Women’s World Cup Group F soccer match between United States and Thailand at the Stade Auguste-Delaune in Reims, France on Tuesday.

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When the U.S. plays Chile on Sunday at the Parc des Princes in their second match of the Women’s World Cup, it will be the first time the U.S. women’s team has ever played in Paris. But the squad is certainly not unknown.

In their record-setting 13-0 blowout of Thailand last Tuesday night, the Americans made clear that they are here with one mission: to win the Cup. They offered strong evidence that they will play every game with all they have.

If the next few matches go as expected, the U.S. is headed straight to a quarterfinal match against host country France – a squad that has looked fearsome in its first two games. In a press conference on Saturday, U.S. Coach Jill Ellis was asked: Would she ever tell her team to play less than 100% to avoid encountering France so early in the tournament?

That’d be a no, Ellis indicated.

“I struggle to tell my team not to tackle each other in training the day before [matches],” she said. “At this point your focus is on yourself. You put yourself in the best position to advance in this tournament.”

Chile lost in its opening match against Sweden, 0-2. But the match was closer than the scoreline suggests. Chile held Sweden scoreless most of the game – then a rain delay was called with 18 minutes left on the clock. Sweden figured some things out during the delay, and they scored twice before the final whistle.

Chile is going to be hungry for a win – they need an upset if they are to continue to the next round. One player to watch is the team’s goalkeeper Christiane Endler. Her father is German and her mother is Chilean; she played soccer at University of South Florida and now plays for top-tier French club PSG.

La Roja, as Chile’s team is known, finished second to Brazil in qualifying for the Cup. They pulled off a 4-0 win over Argentina to clinch their berth in the tournament. The U.S. and Chile played twice in the fall of 2018 – until then, they had never met. Those friendlies, played in California, saw the U.S. win 3-0 and 4-0.

The U.S. offense, with its skilled attackers and deep bench, will be hard for most teams here to stop. Its defense, though, is yet untested. Sunday’s match could offer more clues, if Chile is able to gain enough possession to make a run at the U.S. goal.

The teams will take the pitch in front of a sellout of crowd of some 45,000 people.

“The first game had so many fans it almost felt like a home game,” U.S. midfielder Lindsey Horan said Saturday at the stadium. “For us to be here, in Paris, kind of the heart of it all … is absolutely incredible. We’re just all excited for this next game.”

The Yanks will have at least one fan looking down at them from above: Astronaut Anne McClain tweeted a view of the stadium as seen from the International Space Station. She says the crew will be watching.

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The Ethical Question Of Running Up The Score

The U.S. Women’s soccer team beat Thailand 13-0 on Tuesday, sparking an ethics debate over running up the score against a weaker opponent. NPR’s Michel Martin talks to sports ethicist Shawn Klein.



MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:

The Women’s World Cup is underway in France, and as usual in the early rounds, the underdogs have been getting dispatched by the powerhouses pretty handily. But Tuesday’s match between the U.S. and Thailand took this to a new level. The U.S. crushed the Thai opponents 13-0. For some, this was a cause for celebration and vindication, as the U.S. women have been pressing their governing body for better pay and conditions. But for some commentators, the lopsided result raises questions about sportsmanship and even ethics. Should the Americans have kept running up the score against the vastly outmatched Thais?

To settle this, we’ve called Shawn Klein, a lecturer in ethics and philosophy at Arizona State University. And he’s with us now from KJZZ in Arizona.

Thank you so much for joining us.

SHAWN KLEIN: Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: And, professor Klein, I want to mention that you teach a class in sports ethics – a class that has a whole section of the syllabus devoted to the ethics of running up the score. So you have thought a lot about this. You watched this game. Did it strike you as unethical in the moment?

KLEIN: I thought it was exciting. I thought it was ridiculous. I kept running to my son and saying, they scored again. They scored again. I didn’t experience it as lacking in sportsmanship.

MARTIN: And when you say ridiculous, you don’t mean that in a bad way. You mean it like, ridiculous – like, wow, this is ridiculous.

KLEIN: Yeah. I mean…

MARTIN: This is crazy (laughter).

KLEIN: Crazy – this is – I’ve never seen this. This is, you know, Michael Jordan leaping over all the defenders in basketball. This is Serena Williams demolishing, you know, her competition in a tennis match. It was a sporting moment that you just don’t see, and so it would – that part was exciting, to see that historical aspect of it.

MARTIN: And so what do you make of the way this has kept bubbling up all week? I just want to note that the U.S. coach, Jill Ellis, said that if this had been a men’s soccer match, these questions would never have come up. I don’t know any way to test that theory. But why do you think this has bubbled up like it has all week?

KLEIN: I mean, I think she’s right to a degree. I do think that the fact that this is the Women’s World Cup is playing a role of why it’s getting the attention it’s getting. At the same time, these questions do get raised in other sports. I mean, I can’t recall it being raised in men’s soccer. Certainly, from the U.S. perspective, the U.S. has never gotten (laughter) close to having this kind of match – at least, on the winning side. But in other sports, whether it’s the NFL, men’s college football, baseball, flipping the bat after a home run, the celebrations – this question does get raised against men’s teams.

MARTIN: You did mention the celebrations. So that is another sportsmanship question that has come out of this match – about the way the U.S. women celebrated their goals – you know, jumping in each other’s arms or rolling on the field. I mean, that’s pretty standard stuff. But I do wonder if you think that the fact that the team kept celebrating when they kept scoring – do you think that’s something that’s pushing people’s buttons?

KLEIN: I do think that that’s the driving force for a lot of the discussions. But what the U.S. players were doing was coming together. In some of the cases – so you take Mallory Pugh, this was her first World Cup goal. Yes, it was the 11th goal that the U.S. scored, but this was her first goal. So of course she’s going to celebrate, and of course the team around her is going to come to her and celebrate.

And that shows great team chemistry – that they’re all so happy for Pugh’s success and achievement – an achievement that she’s been dreaming about since she was 6 years old. So I think that that ability to dream and then celebrate when you have achieved your dream, I think, is one of the magical things of sport. And I would hate to see us not celebrate that.

MARTIN: I wanted to ask you, for the people who think it’s just not a good look or maybe it just makes the U.S. look bad or like bullies, why do you think that it was important from the standpoint of the U.S. women for them to play hard and score as many goals as they could? Like, what point do you think they were making?

KLEIN: One is just internal to their – to the team – that they can play well together in the context of a game in front of fans on international TV. I also think it’s a message to the rest of the field that the U.S. is here to defend their championship, and they’re going to play hard.

I think it’s also important in terms of telling young women that it’s OK to be who they are. It’s OK to be great. It’s OK to pursue greatness and to achieve greatness. And it’s OK to celebrate your achievements and not to run from them and not to hide from it. And I think that’s an important message.

MARTIN: Well, I do want to note the USA plays Chile tomorrow, Sunday. Care to – I don’t know – handicap it for us?

KLEIN: (Laughter) I think that the U.S. will win. I don’t think we’ll get into the double digits again. I’ll say that. It may be more like a – let’s say 6-1 score. Let’s go with that.

MARTIN: OK. That’s Shawn Klein. He hosts a podcast called “The Sports Ethicist” where questions like this one often come up.

Shawn Klein, thanks so much for talking to us.

KLEIN: Thanks for having me.

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Not My Job: We Quiz Soccer Star Kristine Lilly On Cups That Aren’t The World Cup

Kristine Lilly reacts after scoring during a quarter final match at the 2007 Women’s World Cup.

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In her more than 20 years playing for the U.S. Women’s National Soccer Team, Kristine Lilly played in five World Cup finals and three Olympics — she holds the record for the most international appearances in the sport’s history. Lilly has recently written a book on team-building called Powerhouse.

We’ve invited Lilly to play a game called “Your cup runneth over!” Three questions about cups that are not the World Cup.

Click the audio link above to find out how she does.



PETER SAGAL, HOST:

And now the game where we ask somebody who’s used to doing great things to do something silly. It’s called Not My Job. The U.S. women’s soccer team has been dominant internationally for decades, and for more than 20 years, Kristine Lilly was its star. She played in five World Cup finals, three Olympics. She joins us now.

Kristine Lilly, welcome to WAIT WAIT… DON’T TELL ME.

KRISTINE LILLY: Thanks for having me.

(APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: Thank you. So just to establish the credentials here, you were on the U.S. women’s team for 23 years starting when you were 16.

LILLY: Yes. And I know it’s hard to believe.

SAGAL: Wow. So you were on the famous team that won in ’99 with Brandi Chastain’s final penalty kick.

LILLY: Correct.

SAGAL: And you’ve – you also won in the next and the next, right? How many championships – three?

LILLY: Well, they won two World Cups, so I was on the first one in ’91 and then the second in ’99. And then I was part of two gold-medal teams…

SAGAL: Right. So you…

LILLY: …’96 and ’04, yeah.

SAGAL: You’ve got some hardware. You’ve got some…

(APPLAUSE)

LILLY: I do – bling.

SAGAL: So now that we’re established you know what you’re talking about, we’ve got to ask you about the topic of the week, which was the American match against Thailand. First of all, that was a little unusual, right?

LILLY: It was. I mean, you know, what? I respect the Thailand team. They kept playing. The U.S., you know, was on fire.

SAGAL: I will confess – I’m rooting, of course, for the U.S., of course – but I felt a little pity for the Thai team.

LILLY: Yeah, no…

SAGAL: And I was, like, come on. You guys get a goal. You can have a goal, too. Come on.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Come on, kids.

LILLY: Oprah’s giving out goals.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: You get a goal. You get a goal.

LILLY: No…

SAGAL: Did you feel – were you…

LILLY: No, I did, too. It’s tough. You know, I’ve been on a team that scored a bunch of goals. I was in the World Cup in ’07 and lost to Brazil 4-0 in the semifinals, which was – felt like it was 10-0. So it’s hard to be on the other side of it. But I – like I said, I respect Thailand. They kept their heads up. They can look at it that way and maybe forget about the score for now.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Yeah, that’s not going to happen. But…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: What is it like to be an American playing soccer? And we all know soccer is not one of the big sports here in America. Famously, Americans don’t care about soccer. Do the – do, like, the Europeans and the Brazilians, the traditional soccer powers – do they get frustrated because it’s Americans who are thrashing them?

LILLY: Well, I don’t think they like us very much.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: No.

LILLY: But it’s funny. I was just at the – I was at the opening game, France against Korea, and there was other players from around the world that played during my time – a Norwegian, a French player. And I was talking to the Norwegian, and I was, like, we didn’t like you. And she’s, like, well, we didn’t like you.

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: It was pretty mutual playing, but that’s what made it competitive. That’s what made great rivalry. And now we can sit and talk about it and share what we’ve learned through playing the game and what, you know, the women’s game has grown into now.

SAGAL: Do you still dislike them a little bit?

LILLY: Oh, yes. Totally.

SAGAL: Oh, yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

HELEN HONG: Do you know a lot of Norwegian curse words?

LILLY: Zilch.

SAGAL: Yeah.

HONG: Is that one?

JORDAN CARLOS: Oh, I thought that was one.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: She doesn’t learn Norwegian curse words. She inspires them.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Is there a difference between the men’s game and the women’s game other than the fact that one is played by men, one is played by women? Are there different styles of soccer? Do you see different things if you know what to look for?

LILLY: The difference I would say right now – the men are a little bit more dramatic.

(CHEERING)

HONG: Oh, yes.

CARLOS: Whoa, whoa. Shots fired.

HONG: I know.

CARLOS: Shots fired.

HONG: Those men are just so overemotional.

SAGAL: I know.

HONG: Wow.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: So do your kids play soccer?

LILLY: They do. I have two daughters, and they both play soccer.

SAGAL: Oh, my gosh. So what kind of soccer mom are you?

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: Oh, my goodness. Some days it’s good, some days it’s not good.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Describe a bad day.

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: Well, I also help coach, so I…

HONG: Whoa.

LILLY: I get to say the things. But sometimes, I’m, like, oh, my gosh. I really want to say something right now, but I can’t.

SAGAL: So wait a minute. You help coach.

LILLY: Yes.

SAGAL: So that means there’s a coach.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: And this poor woman…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …Has a 23-year veteran…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …Of the U.S. women’s team with two World Cup and two Olympic titles standing there giving suggestions.

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: You nailed it.

SAGAL: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

HONG: I bet she knows Norwegian curse words.

SAGAL: Yeah, I bet she does.

(CHEERING)

SAGAL: And are you gentle about it? Oh, coach, you know, it’s just an idea, but maybe you could try to win a game? I mean, is that…

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: I’m a very good assistant.

SAGAL: I’m sure you are.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: And how are you with your daughters? I mean, are you – do you, like, you know, give them a talking-to if they don’t play to their potential? Or are you one of those everybody-is-a-champion kind of people?

LILLY: Oh, no. No, everyone’s not a champion. No.

(APPLAUSE)

HONG: Wow.

CARLOS: Wow. Oh, my…

HONG: Damn. Harsh.

SAGAL: Get that participation trophy out of my house.

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: Exactly.

SAGAL: You ever been tempted to cut one of your daughters from the team?

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: Not yet.

SAGAL: All right.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Well, Kristine Lilly, it is a pleasure to talk to you today. But we have invited you here to play a game we’re calling…

BILL KURTIS: Your Cup Runneth Over.

SAGAL: You, of course, are a World Cup champion. But what do you know about the world’s other cups? We’re going to ask you three questions about many different cups.

LILLY: Right.

SAGAL: Answer two correctly, you’ll win a prize that is not a cup for one of our listeners. Instead, it’s the voice of their choice from our show. Bill, who is Christine Lilly playing for?

KURTIS: Shane Heiman of Lawrence, Kan.

SAGAL: All right. Ready to play?

LILLY: All right. I am. All right, Shane. Here we go.

SAGAL: I can feel you, like, getting ready to go.

CARLOS: I know.

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: I’m in my game mode right now. You know, I’m very competitive.

SAGAL: I know. I know. Here’s your first question. We’ve had cups of one kind, of course, for thousands of years. In fact, Pythagoras, the ancient Greek mathematician, was a pioneer in the cup field as well. What did he invent? Was it, A, the novelty gift cup…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …With the message world’s best mathematician on it…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …B, the prank cup, which spilled wine all over the user when he tried to take a sip; or C, the travel mug – in his case, a cup designed to be latched to the saddle of a horse?

LILLY: I’m going to go with C.

SAGAL: You’re going to go with C. It was actually the prank cup.

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: Oh.

HONG: What?

SAGAL: Pythagoras, the great genius mathematician, invented the prank cup. And it’s really ingenious. If you pour in too much wine, it all of a sudden drains out onto your lap.

CARLOS: That Pythagoras.

SAGAL: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

ROY BLOUNT JR: Who invented the whoopee cushion? That’s…

(LAUGHTER)

BLOUNT JR: Socrates, I’ll bet.

CARLOS: Yeah.

LILLY: All right.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: I notice, by the way, Kristine has stopped laughing. She is, like, wait a minute.

LILLY: I know. I’m, like, I’m mad right now.

SAGAL: All right. Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Next question. We all know and love Japan’s famous cup-o-ramen. You know, it’s a styrofoam cup. You pour in water, you get ramen noodles. It’s great. Other countries have their own version, too, like which of these? A, Russia’s cup-o-mashed potatoes; B, Canada’s cup-o-bacon; or C, Sweden’s cup-o-herring?

LILLY: Oh, man. What was the first one again?

SAGAL: The first one was Russia’s cup-o-mashed potatoes.

LILLY: Those good, old Russians – let’s see what they’ve got (laughter).

SAGAL: You’re going to go with that.

LILLY: Yeah.

SAGAL: You’re right, of course.

(SOUNDBITE OF BELL)

LILLY: Yeah.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLOS: Yeah.

SAGAL: The cup-o-instant mashed potatoes is available in chicken, beef, onion and crouton flavor. And I’m going to be honest – it sounds great.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Our last question – this is – you can think of this as the shoot-out. If you win, you win.

LILLY: Yeah.

SAGAL: All cars have cup holders now. That’s passe. That’s boring. The real innovation in drinking while driving is which of these? A, the top-of-the-line Mercedes Maybach, which comes with sterling silver champagne flutes for each passenger; B, the new model Honda Odyssey minivan, which has holders for juice boxes in the ceiling so you can hang them above your kids like IV bags…

(LAUGHTER)

CARLOS: Sweet juice.

SAGAL: …Or C, the new Ford 150 Tailgate Edition pickup, which has a built in beer keg and tap?

LILLY: Oh, these things are all just wrong.

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: Oh, wow. I’m going with the minivan with the drip.

(GROANING)

HONG: Oh. The audience is rioting.

CARLOS: Yeah.

SAGAL: So you – so the idea is, like, you put your kid…

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: …Strap him in…

CARLOS: Yeah.

SAGAL: …Hook up the juice box…

CARLOS: Like a gerbil.

SAGAL: …Above their head, run the straw down to their mouth.

(LAUGHTER)

LILLY: I think it’s more like A, but I don’t agree with it.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: So in other words, you think A is the right answer, but you just think it’s a wrong thing to have. You think it’s…

LILLY: Yes.

SAGAL: Well, the truth doesn’t care about your feelings.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: So you’re going to pick it?

LILLY: Yes.

SAGAL: You are right, of course.

(SOUNDBITE OF BELL)

CARLOS: Yes.

(APPLAUSE)

LILLY: Thank you, audience.

SAGAL: This is a $200,000 luxury sedan, and you’d better believe for that amount of money it comes with a little fridge to keep your champagne cold.

CARLOS: Oh.

SAGAL: Yeah. Yeah. Bill, how did Kristine Lilly do on our quiz?

KURTIS: Kristine, you can hang another award up because you won our quiz.

SAGAL: Congratulations.

(APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: Kristine Lilly is a Hall of Fame soccer player. She’s played in five World Cups and three Olympics. Her new book on team-building, “Powerhouse,” is on sale now.

Kristine Lilly, thank you so much for joining us.

(APPLAUSE)

LILLY: Thank you.

SAGAL: Thank you, and good luck to your former teammates in the World Cup.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “WORLD CUP FEVER (DEMO)”)

AIR MIAMI: (Singing) Hey, hey, hey, I’ve got it – World Cup fever. She, she, she, she’s got it – World Cup fever. I, I, I’ve got it – World Cup Fever. He, he, he’s got it – World Cup fever.

SAGAL: In just a minute, Bill has a new way to get you to eat your vegetables in the Listener Limerick Challenge. Call 1-888-WAIT-WAIT to join us on the air. We’ll be back in a minute with more of WAIT WAIT… DON’T TELL ME from NPR.

Copyright © 2019 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by Verb8tm, Inc., an NPR contractor, and produced using a proprietary transcription process developed with NPR. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.

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Saturday Sports: Women’s World Cup, U.S. Open

The Women’s World Cup is under way, with exciting matches and some controversy as well.



SCOTT SIMON, HOST:

I wait all week to say, it’s time for sports.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

SIMON: International women’s football – the Women’s World Cup now happening in France. NPR’s Tom Goldman joins us. Good morning, Tom.

TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Good morning, Scott. I’m a little lost. There’s no abhorring dinosaurs.

SIMON: Well, I – you know, Stu Rushfield, our technical director, suggested a new one. Ready? OK?

GOLDMAN: Yeah.

SIMON: Adore the dinosaur. Not bad, right?

GOLDMAN: Not bad.

SIMON: I hope he was talking about the Raptors and not me. But in any event, well, it’s a – abhor the dinosaurs. A couple matches of the Women’s World Cup, a couple more tomorrow, including the U.S. against Chile, following their 13-0 victory over Thailand. Do you think Chile stands a better chance?

GOLDMAN: No. Well, maybe a better chance than 13-nil. That was a lot. Chile is playing in its first Women’s World Cup, doesn’t have a lot of experience, although it does have some good players, goalkeeper Christiane Endler, midfielder Francisca Lara. But the U.S. is just too much right now, Scott. Not sure it will be 13-nil, but should be win No. 2.

SIMON: I have to ask, what about the criticism the U.S. team faced following the celebrations as the score mounted – not, you know, goals six, seven and eight, but when it got to 10, 11, 12 and 13?

GOLDMAN: Yeah.

SIMON: That it was just – that it just wasn’t classy. And I know we’re two men talking about this, but I have criticized male athletes for rubbing the noses of their opponents in the dirt with celebrations. And, you know, you’re playing the World Cup. Criticism is part of the package.

GOLDMAN: Yeah, I mean, Abby Wambach, the great U.S. player – former U.S. player, said, you know, there wouldn’t be this criticism if it were men, and I think that’s wrong. I think there would’ve been. You know, it was excessive with the later goals, as you mentioned.

U.S. women’s national team member Mallory Pugh says the team hasn’t really talked about it as a team. There’ve been various explanations by team members to media, you know, that one person said they had a lot of stress building coming into the World Cup; they wanted to let it out. For some of the young women, it was a realization of a life dream, scoring in the World Cup, so they were excited.

Look; no one begrudges them the number of goals scored. It’s important to score a lot in the group stage. But, yeah, probably best from now on if it gets lopsided again to mute things a bit and act like you’ve been there, right?

SIMON: That’s what Walter Payton said. Sports writers in France – I benefit from following that a little – say the celebrations made the U.S. team look like strutting, dancing, overweening imperialists and has made them the least popular team in the World Cup.

GOLDMAN: How do you really feel? Yeah, really.

SIMON: Well, I was quoting – oh, never mind. OK.

GOLDMAN: (Laughter) No, how do the French really feel? Yeah.

SIMON: How do the French really feel?

You’re in California this week for the U.S. Open at Pebble Beach. We’ve been accused of not giving enough attention to golf on this program.

GOLDMAN: Yeah.

SIMON: OK, so you’re in Pebble – you’ve been in Pebble Beach. In any event, moving on.

GOLDMAN: (Laughter) Oh, mean.

SIMON: I’ve got to ask you about the NBA. And you know, abhor – adore the dinosaur. What about the argument that the Warriors, you know, were practically limping by the end? And…

GOLDMAN: Well…

SIMON: Yes. Go ahead.

GOLDMAN: Yeah. Well, you know, let’s do adore the dinosaur and acknowledge they played really well to beat the Warriors. But, you know, the argument, I think, is valid. I think definitely could’ve been different with a healthy Kevin Durant and, at the end, Klay Thompson, who tore the ACL in his left knee in that last game after he had been playing really well.

You know, Steve Kerr was asked that question, though – the head coach for Golden State. What if Klay hadn’t been injured? And he shut things down, simply saying, he was. And that’s the ultimate answer. Injuries happen. They happened, and the Raptors won.

SIMON: Is it going to – is a team on its way to the finals going to start subbing more of its regulars? And does that raise a question about, is it sportsmanship? Is that what the fans pay hundreds of dollars for a seat to see?

GOLDMAN: That’s an interesting question. You know, Kerr gave voice to this when he wondered if the wear and tear of five straight seasons getting to the finals led to these injuries.

There is a science of athletic fatigue. Basketball writer Henry Abbott wrote about it in ESPN The Magazine a couple years ago. In it, he talked to exercise physiology expert Dr. Michael Joyner, who said humans can’t sustain more than five all-out efforts every two weeks. So considering that, maybe coaches will look at what happened to Golden State and look at maybe resting guys more during the regular season.

SIMON: NPR’s Tom Goldman, thanks so much.

GOLDMAN: You’re welcome.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

Copyright © 2019 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by Verb8tm, Inc., an NPR contractor, and produced using a proprietary transcription process developed with NPR. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.

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Women’s World Cup: First Week Brings Big Wins, Gorgeous Goals — And Some Controversy

U.S. forward Alex Morgan shoots and scores past Thailand’s Natthakarn Chinwong on Tuesday in Reims, France, in the group stage of the Women’s World Cup.

Michael Chow/USA Today Sports via Reuters


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Michael Chow/USA Today Sports via Reuters

In the first seven days of the Women’s World Cup, there have already been stunning goals, crushing defeats and no shortage of controversy. We’ve been following the action from France — oui, un croissant, s’il-vous plaît — and here are some of the key stories we’ve seen in a week of great soccer.

A very big win

The biggest story is the United States’ demolition of Thailand on Tuesday night, winning 13-0. The game set all kinds of World Cup records: It was the most goals scored and the biggest margin of victory in any tournament, women’s or men’s; it had the highest number of players — seven — to score in a game; and it tied the record for number of goals in a match — five — courtesy of Alex Morgan. (U.S. forward Michelle Akers had five in 1991, as did Russia’s Oleg Salenko on the men’s side in 1994.)

And a number of World Cup rookies for the U.S. scored on soccer’s biggest stage: Samantha Mewis and Rose Lavelle both had two goals, and Mallory Pugh and Lindsey Horan each notched one. Veteran forwards Megan Rapinoe and Carli Lloyd both scored, as well.

As the history-making game played out in the stadium in Reims, the sense was that we were witnessing an incredible display. While it was no surprise that the U.S. defeated the weaker Thailand squad, the Yanks’ goals were impressive, as was their ability to keep up pressure nearly 100% of the time — a testament to the strength of a squad that could be the best ever.


FIFA
YouTube

But some observers thought the U.S. celebrated its later goals with a bit too much joy. (One of those observers, a former player for the Canadian national team, says she began receiving death threats.)

But the U.S. shrugged off such criticism.

“We knew that every goal could matter,” Morgan said after the game, referring to the fact that goal differential can affect which team ranks at the top of the group. ‘When it comes to celebrations, I think this was a really good team performance tonight, and I think it was important for us to celebrate with each other.”

The leaderboard

Three teams have already secured two wins, making them very likely to advance: France, Germany and Italy.

Host country France looked powerful — and dangerous to its future opponents — in Les Bleus’ opening day 4-0 win over South Korea. Eugénie Le Sommer got the game off to a rollicking start with a goal in the ninth minute off a pass from captain Amandine Henry.


FIFA
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Defender Wendie Renard, who hails from the Caribbean island of Martinique and stands 6 feet, 1 inch tall, scored two headers and showed how France will be a force on corner kicks. And Henry closed off the night with a gorgeous goal in the 85th minute.

WHAT A STRIKE BY AMANDINE HENRY ?? pic.twitter.com/FwXfNZWYJ6

— FOX Soccer (@FOXSoccer) June 7, 2019

The U.S. plays Chile on Sunday — a match the Americans are expected to win.

Some surprises

Group C, comprising Australia, Brazil, Jamaica and Italy, is shaping up to be an interesting foursome.

One reason is that Italy came out stronger than expected. Ranked No. 15 in the world, Italy beat Australia (ranked No. 6) 2-1 when they faced off on Sunday. In its second match, Italy clobbered World Cub debutante Jamaica 5-0 on Friday.

Australia is regarded as one of the strongest teams in the tournament, and after that surprise loss to Italy had to take on Brazil. Brazil beat Jamaica in its first game, without Marta, who was recovering from a thigh injury.

As Australia and Brazil faced off on Thursday, Brazil pulled out to an early lead, with a penalty by Marta in the 27th minute and a powerful header by Cristiane in the 38th. But the Matildas came roaring back, with a goal just before the half, another in the 58th and an own goal by Brazil’s Monica a few minutes later. Australia became just the second team in Women’s World Cup history to come back after a two-goal deficit.

Some questions linger around the Brazilian team. Marta, Cristiane and veteran defender Formiga all came off the pitch early in the Australia match, which could indicate nagging injuries. Formiga also racked up her second yellow card, which means she will miss Brazil’s final group-stage match, against Italy on Tuesday.

YouTube

There has also been only one tie thus far: a 0-0 draw between Argentina and Japan.

Good moves

South Africa — the team nicknamed Banyana Banyana — really knows how to enter a room.

South Africans showing up to World Cup games remains the best entries pic.twitter.com/yB7UCGZAQz

— Miriti Murungi (@NutmegRadio) June 8, 2019

After the USA’s thumping of Thailand, Carli Lloyd went up to Thai goalkeeper Sukanya Chor Charoenying and gave her a hug and some words of encouragement. Then the two had a very sweet interaction on Twitter.

All you can do is give it your best each and every day. Keep fighting and never give up!! Still 2 more games to play. ? https://t.co/pFW4wEK8Nb

— Carli Lloyd (@CarliLloyd) June 13, 2019

“I felt for her,” Lloyd told reporters Friday. “In the wins and losses, I think character is a true testament to the sport. … I just hope they continue to put their head up, continue to fight — and just keep going.”

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